Many others sites have posted summaries of the various events, but I thought I would post it all as it was written in my notes should you prefer the raw and real form.
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| Photo by The American Alpine Club |
I did not write down all the questions that were asked, but tried to write down what I could and certainly wrote what they were saying. So it often looks a little convoluted and hard to follow, think of it like facts and opinions on these people and when the subject changes, a question was probably asked and I did not write it down.
Chris Bonnington and Ueli Steck: On Annapurna
Chris Bonnington
Ueli Steck
Speed can make things safe, but to fast can be as dangerous or more than expedition climbing. For a long time, he was always trying to go one step more and psyched to push it. He realized he is at the top of his comfort level of safety and “almost has to retire." It is a mind shift to climb and not push it in the same way as before. He accepted a lot of risk with Annapurna, so much that he probably will not survive if he tries a second time.
Chris Bonnington
Due to wars in the 1960’s you could not get to the Himalayas at all. He would climb with his friends back in the UK and they all would dream of going. Putting an expedition together back then was like trying to organize an army since you had to gather many people, equipment, food, etc. He realized he just needed to do it and went for it taking over a year to just plan it. He then found a photo of an objective and organized their expedition from the one photo he found! The key to expedition climbing is planning logistics well. Being a expedition leader in those situations was hard and it took a lot to get all the individualistic climbers to work together since everyone wants to go to the top and probably only one or two people will make it. He had to try and balance it all.
Ueli Steck
Fear is important. You can’t lose fear, and you need to be scared, it keeps you safe. When preparing for an objective: think about it. What does it need? When you plan you find solutions and through the structure and planning you will diminish the fear. You need to make your own decisions and be comfortable with them. Be influenced by your own safety and not others opinions. If you have cold feet on a ground breaking climb are you going to go down to protect from frostbite, or keep pushing on? He has been on the north face of the Eiger 37 times and turned around many times when attempting the speed record because he did not feel 100% good. It is totally good to climb the Eiger in three hours!
Chris Bonnington
Never ever climb with fear of people. You need to find a balance of determination to press on and willingness to turn around. Getting experience is to way to get the balance. Always listen to it even if you cannot explain it. Once on the Walker Spur of the Grande Jorasses lots of people turned down due to the clouds and fog. He kept going because he felt good and it ended up being one of the best days of climbing he had ever had. Instincts are the way to go.
He ended up meeting Dick Bass and Frank Wells and going to Antartica with them. They had wanted to climb the Seven Summits in one year! They took him to Antartica with them since the British Geologic Survey in Antartica was not willing to help them and they hoped with Chris along, things would change. They ended up going up Mt. Vinson and near the top Frank was looking like he would get frostbite on his nose, so he and others went down. Chris ended up on top of Vinson solo. He felt guilty about it as well as excited to be all alone in such a wild and amazing place, and when he returned to camp, the others thought it was some sort of “Machiavellian plot” to keep them from the top and Chris was actually involved with the Geological Survey..! The all ended up at the top just a short time later.
Ueli Steck
In the future there will be lots of fast climbing. He spoke with Killian Jornet and they talked about the future of of alpine climbing and just starting in the near by village rather than trekking in to a base camp since in reality they are not that far from the mountain. This style would have such a smaller impact in the mountains with smaller camps. Big last problems in the Himalayas include the west face of Makalu and the Horseshoe Traverse of Everest. Life in the mountains is much simpler when you move with less and travel based on skill. Messener changed the game all those years ago, just like he is doing now. He thought out of the box, thought of what he wanted to do, and went for it. When you are at the extreme end like Annapurna was, it takes a lot of skill to stay alive.
Chris Bonnington
Once was out hiking hills with a girlfriend, and they met a couple on the of the final hill. The girls knew each other and so they all talked. The boys decided to run back to the car and Chris was in front the whole time. He was in excellent shape, and he could not figure out how he could not shake this guy. When they got to the bottom the guy was like “good show! I had to hold back though, I have a race this weekend.” He thought that it was a bit arrogant until he found out it was Robert Bannister, the man to run the first sun 4 minute mile!
He was once researching a book and wanted to talk to tall the major innovators in adventure after World War Two. He met Neil Armstrong (who had apparently turned into quite the recluse) as well as Buzz Aldrin. They were much different than all the other inventors since they were part of NASA and their missions were all but planned for them. Armstrong was a test pilot before becoming an astronaut and he was really visibly pushing the envelope in that field but again in a more structured way that most adventurers. Ueli is really impressive.
Ueli Steck
I love climbing to much and I wont stop even as I ratchet it back (he is 38 years old). It is just something to accept as you grow older. He is getting inspired to was the younger generation take the baton. Alpinism will really change when people start younger and really train. It is important to not take yourself to be to important and just enjoy it wherever you are at. It is interesting to view they differences in expeditions now and when Chris was alive. His expeditions were huge!
Chris Bonnington
Leading a huge expedition back then was all about effective leadership. It sounds bad, but you have to be manipulative. You need to know people, what they can do, and what you can ask them to do. Learn who will make sacrifices and use them. One of the unsung heroes of one of his one of his expeditions stayed back and traveled with their equipment which was 3 weeks late and never got the chance to summit.
Ueli Steck
When you are up on top, it is no where near over. your next thought is how to get down and it is over once you are in the valley below.
Chris Bonnington
In 1985, he was the oldest person to summit Everest at 50 years old. back then the Nepalese government only allowed one expedition on route at a time, so he has the whole Western Cwm all to himself. When he was going for the top, he ran out of steam on the Hillary Step. He then had a hallucination of Doug Scott when encouraged him to the top. When he summited, he sat and cried for a while thinking of all his friends who had died on his expeditions and on the flanks of Everest. While he was sad, he was viewing the greatest view in the world.
What can we do about Everest? It really is an inevitable development. Everest is at a volume that it ought to be controlled, but how would it happen? We probably will leave it as it is since the Nepalese government would be terrible at running a decent system. Climbing is dangerous and what can you do? People need to realize that climbing Everest is not danger free and you need to accept it and take personal responsibility. As well, don’t like crowds? Go to the unknown! There are many unknown never visited peaks that are amazing. Let people make choices, be responsible for them and go “state of nature” (not his exact words but the same idea).
Ueli Steck
The dawn wall is amazing! A major milestone. He has climbed 5.14b.
Chris Bonnington
There has always been adventure climbing and “sport: climbing is a developing style. What matters is athleticism. They chose where to go verse just going for the easiest line. Bolts worry him. Too much retrobolting and “sport climbing” can ruin the classic traditional routes. They are almost two different sports and we need to learn how to let them both develop to their fullest extent without conflicting with each other.
Ueli Steck
What is the real reason for the fight on Everest (asked by Reinhold Messener)? Everest is really commercialized with a lot of money there. Everyone wants to have a piece of the pie plus more and does not want to lose what they already have. The place where it happened was just a simple ski slope (which in his eyes is a place where they are not even needed) and the sherpas where starting to fix the ropes. They needed to acclimatize and so they went up the normal route to do so. Some friends of his had left them a tent and other supplies so they were going up there to spend the night and acclimatize. There is absolutely no rule saying that you need to wait for sherpas or anyone else before someone can go.
Reinhold Messener though that perhaps one of the reasons they were mad was that they were trying to take the mountain back and have people climb on it on their own terms and they met have been annoyed that they were using the sherpas route that they had put up through the icefall and had not paid for that route. Ueli Steck said that they had actually paid for the route they wanted to do, plus additional fees for usage of the route the the Ice Doctors had figured out through the ice falls, so it was not a problem of using the results of their work without paying for it.
Reinhold Messener thought there were three groups at play there, organizers, climbers, and sherpas. Young sherpas are saying they want the whole cake and used Ueli to make their point.
Everest Panal Discussion: Melissa Arnot, Garrett Madison, Dave Hahn, Greg Vernovage, Phunuru Sherpa, and Ngima Sherpa moderated by Alan Arnette
Dave Hahn
Everest has changed so much in terms of climate, lots of glacier loss. It is hard to quantify the changes higher on the mountain, but one place it is really noticeable is the Hillary Step. In the 1980’s it was really snowy and now it has all turned rocky and ice turning it into a much more dangerous place than it ever has been. The ice fall has always been dangerous. What is funny, is that only on Everest is it “safe or ok” to walk through something like the Khumbu. It is rather flawed logic.
Phunuru Sherpa
His first summit of Everest was in 2003. The last time he was at the top was 2011 and he has visibly seen changes with things turning from snow to rock and ice now, even in that period.
Melissa Arnot
In regards to the ice fall, you cannot think to much. It is not reasonable. However, it is a risk you must accept with you climb that route. Climbing is a process and the ice fall is part of it if you decide to climb that route.
Greg Vernovage
He has put over 400 people on the summit since 2009. There are a lot more clients now with a lot of companies entering with low standards for clients. Not only should there be a responsibility for companies to screen their clients, but clients are responsible for who they choose and should screen the companies.
Melissa Arnot
The infrastructure that is there is making it easier for people to be more dependent and get into more remote places with out the abilities or a knowledge to survive.
Dave Hahn
We are in a dangerous position when we speak about “clients”. There is a huge range of clients and they range from excellent climbers to those who should not be there. Lets remember that when we speak of them, we are talking about a huge range of abilities. This idea actually should apply to the guides as well. There are a lot of stunts going on at Everest. Specifically wing suit jumps and marriages. Most are tolerable but others are offensive such as the one where a guy tried to climb the mountain naked(!?).
Ngima Sherpa
The mountains are sacred and when we climb them we try to respect them. We really don’t want offensive behavior there in a place so special to us.
Garrett Madison
There are possibilities of guiding other routes, but they will require more skill.
Greg Vernovage
It certainly depends on the client, but lots more of the routes on Everest could be guided.
Melissa Arnot
The idea of a ladder on the Hilary Step is weird. It just does not make sense having been there and trying to think of a ladder there.
Greg Vernovage
It kind of comes down to a few things First is the Historical significance of the Hilary Step and climbing that is a big part of climbing Everest. Second is bottlenecks. The concern for them is why a ladder has been suggested and in reality there are so many other things that can be changed and mitigated within the expeditions before the ladder becomes the front line problem. He has seen alternate rappels down the step and thinks they are good.
Dave Hahn
A ladder just would not work. The idea for it probably came from the Second Step ladder with Nepalese officials thinking “well there is a ladder there, why not at the Hilary Step?” The difference is that on the Second Step, you genuinely need the ladder. The Hilary Step is already pretty much a natural ladder. Dave was read a statement from a news outlet that said something to the effect that no one credible and responsible will continue to pursue Everest by the same route. Dave in jest said “no credible and responsible person will…but I will!” Everyone on the panel laughed and agreed.
The north side of Everest is not problem free either. It is a bigger summit day on the north side with lots of small rock steps (baby Hilary steps if you will) that make guiding it complicated and time consuming.
Phunuru Sherpa
The north side is safer to guide.
Garrett Madison
Preparation for Everest is king. You want to prepare, but you really want to avoid over training. You want to focus on technical climbing and emotional preparation.
Greg Vernovage
He calls it the three pillars of Everest. First is physical training. Second is mental training. Third is emotional training. You need to get used to being away from the technology that runs our lives. You and your family need to be comfortable with the idea that “no news is good news”.
Melissa Arnot
The government just opened up a lot of new peaks. She went and looked for good peaks to guide and does not think there will be a replacement for Everest and the classic trekking peaks like Island Peak. Location is key and they are located in the Khumbu. Most people they are guiding are interested in the location not the interesting climbing offered by the obscure peaks.
Garrett Madison
It is really good Nepal has opened up a lot of new peaks. He hopes to see a lot of new routes.
Greg Vernovage
What is needed by the sherpa guides? Language skills are really needed and really important. Terrain knowledge is important as well as continuing mountain and technical education. There are a lot of factors that contributed to the latest Everest tragedy. Some of them include the first ice fall ladder was broken, as well as the fact that there is a weight limit for the load carriers through the ice fall and many of the packs they found after the avalanche where two times over the weight limit.
Melissa Arnot
Sherpas have a huge range of skill just as the word client and guide is a word that covers all of those groups. She hopes all companies are hiring responsibly. She founded the Juniper Fund in 2012 to help the families of sherpa tragedies. We all need to climb responsibly.
Alan Arnette
The Nepalese will not let helicopters carry loads past the ice fall.
Garrett Madison
Companies offer the exorbitant luxuries to try and stand out from amongst others. He wants to see the government allow caches of gear at camp two. He wants to see Everest climbed more Denali style. More mountain and alpine climbing, not so much high altitude luxury.
Dave Hahn
We need to be engaged with the ice fall. He would like to see people equipped with avalanche beacons, radios, etc. As well, he wishes people would carry more rescue gear than loads of personal luxury junk.
Garrett Madison
With his company they charge a lot of money but the customer is paying for a high standard of safety and competence on the mountain. He used the example of Seven Summits Treks who is not bringing in outside help which cuts the costs quite a bit since you don’t need permits for outsiders and their travel, etc. The problem is that they do not have the experience to run a show like that, so they charge less, but offer less of a margin that others do.
Dave Hahn
I am not competing with other companies. I am not looking for a client who is trying to save time and money on Everest. I want someone who is willing to pay for competence. There is too much at stake here.
Alan Arnette
Should there be more transparency on Everest issues?
Garrett Madison
Out of respect for the family, the company he works for lets the family take the wheel about a persons death and media exposure on Everest.
Dave Hahn
It is hard to find a balance between reporting injuries and deaths and benefiting from the media firestorm. We don’t want to do that. While you won’t find death rates on a companies website, it is easy to find with companies are reliable.
Greg Vernovage
In reference to the ice fall, there will now be two lines in the bottleneck spots and the route will be in the middle away from the serac above that originally broke loose.
Melissa Arnot
Objective hazards will always be there, we need to be responsible people and support the local people.
Greg Vernovage
SPCC (Sagarmatha Pollution Control Committee) needs to put more money and training into the icefall doctors. The SPCC can put the extra money into other things if it is left over from the ice doctors so that is what they try to do.
Dave Hahn
It is faster to travel on the side of the ice fall (where the route was when the avalanche occurred) but the safest route through the ice fall will be in the middle which will require more training for the ice doctors since the middle is much more complex and broken. The people the SPCC sends to put up the route are poorly equipped and badly trained. There needs to be more people employed and trained if we want to have a decent route. In reality the only way that we are going to get that is if a company sacrifices and send people over early to go and influence it and really guide it.
Alan Arnette
Is K2 the new Everest?
Garrett Madison
It is a mountain that is much harder to access and much harder to climb that Everest.
Dave Hahn
"I think people go to K2 to prove that they don’t need guiding". It is however being more traveled and more known and in the future it could get guided.
Greg Vernovage
"I won’t guide K2. There is a lot of risk with Pakistan itself right now, let alone K2". Asked about the government controlling Everest- "Nepal can’t even take care of its own people with clean water and electricity", let alone control Everest and the volume of people there.
Melissa Arnot
The total number of people there is not the issue. It is the volume of people each day. There was actually more people on Everest on 2008 verses in years 2009, 2010, and 2011.
Dave Hahn
No one will argue against people gaining more experience before going there, but a lot of climbers are coming from places like China and Asia. We, either us here in NYC or my company, cannot change what they or their companies do by declaring requirements. My company is really regulated and I would like to see more of that in Nepal. Hopefully someday Nepal and Tibet will match American standards in both a humanitarian sense as well as in ability to run something like a national park (again not his exact words).
Sasha Digulian
Thought the Sardinia project was impossible for her. She tried to send the film crews back but they came anyways and she eventually sent it.
Studying Business and non fiction writing at Columbia. After collage she thought she would focus on professional climbing, perhaps write a book about what she does, and maybe sports marketing in the future.
Differentiation is important in climbing to progress. There is so much to try as well!
Learning to climb ice is another tool in her tool box of experiencing climbing.
Social media has been instrumental in her career-she specifically mentioned using Instagram since it is easy to use it for inspiration.
Wants to institute programs to teach beginners to climb outside.
Climbing is super safe, proper instruction is the key.
Everest looks like the Times Square subways line.
Her plans this summer are to go to Yosemite, then China, then Madagascar.
Training is 6 days a week 2-3 hours a day. 4 days of climbing and 2 days of strength training.
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